Dad's Professional Work, Side A – circa 1998    (Interviewed by Lana Orrock Putman) I had never considered myself much of a student in high school and before that. School was social life for me, more than anything. I knew I was going to have to prepare to do something and I decided I was going to go into education. Just because it just kind of felt good. I mean, I definitely didn't want to be a lawyer, or a doctor, or go into science and math and things like that. I considered social work. But I thought it would be education. I quite liked history and English, even in high school. I really enjoyed my English teacher at BYU. So I thought I'd go into secondary education and it'd be either English or history. I went down to lower campus where Dean Laws’ office was to have a registration change made. He asked me what I was going to major in, and I told him and he said, “You don't want to do that. Secondary teachers are a dime a dozen. You want to go into the elementary education.” He said that's where the future is. So on that advice, I did. I changed my major to elementary. I was taking a psychology class at the same time, and by the time I finished that first quarter, I decided I was going to major in elementary education with a minor in psychology. By the time I finished my bachelor’s degree, I was more interested in counseling, so I got my master’s in counseling. Then that's when I worked in the Counseling Center when Vern Jensen hired me, at that time I told you. After I got my master’s degree, a position opened up immediately at the Counselor’s Center and I started working there. The first several years in the Counselor’s Center were really very good. They had a really great staff, great administration; Dean Lloyd, who was the Dean of the Students. Antone Romney was the chairman of the Counseling Center. Vern Jensen was in charge of testing. I worked under him. All the staff people were just really great to work with, so I really enjoyed that. But then, as years went on, we had a few people come onto the staff that were ‘world movers’ and ‘kingdom builders’, and things got kind of uncomfortable. Since I had gotten too comfortable there before getting a PhD, or without getting it, they started putting pressure on me to get the PhD. I just, over a few years of strategic retreats and moving back and forth and so on, I just determined -- well, they determined it for me, because Dave Sorenson said, “Well, I'm going to tell the administration to not renew your contract next year.” So we had a few more hassles about that. It finally turned out that I was leaving. Then Dale Tingey said, “Well Scott, I understand you're leaving the Y. You ever considered going to the reservation?” I said we hadn't. He said, “They're building a new high school in Tuba City.” He'd been down there as mission president so he was aware. He had gotten in touch with the school down there. I went down there and after a five- minute interview they offered me a job. In the meantime, I had interviewed for some jobs over at Los Alamos, New Mexico, where the Atomic Energy Labs are. They had a real professional setup; real professional administration, professional teachers, just a first-class operation. They offered the position to a new PhD. When I first went to interview a few days later, they called me up and said that another position had opened up and I could take it. I said, well, in the meantime I had signed a contract with Tuba City. They said, “You can ask out of that if you want.” Back in those days I was of the opinion that they had met with me and I would stick to it, which I've learned better now. They wouldn't have been offended. It wouldn't have been a big problem if I'd gotten out of the contract. Plus the fact Tuba City was a lot closer to Provo than Los Alamos, New Mexico was. So I said, “I think we better stay closer to home.” Dawn’s mother was sick. Professionally, Los Alamos would have been a great opportunity because of their professionalism. But for the family, going to Tuba City was a fit. Now, I still wish I'd have never left BYU, because, you know, I still bleed true ‘blue’ blood. I have friends there that said, “Oh, I wish we had the guts to get out of here!'' because of the things -- the way the administration, especially in the Dean of Students and Counseling Center, went. Anyway, that was a little comfort. Professionally, I didn't do too well in Tuba City. They don't know how to use counselors there. I determined what I could do to help the kids. I worked real hard to help the kids in specific areas by reaching out to them, as they wouldn't reach out to us necessarily, mostly Navajo kids. That first year or two were pretty good. But then, each year, Dawn would say, “Let's try a little harder to get out of here; try a little harder to get a little closer to civilization.” By then, Page was starting to look pretty good to us. Page wasn’t too impressive the first two or three times being through there, but after a couple years in Tuba City, Page was starting to look real good. A position opened up and I went there. We spent more time in that little house than any place we'd ever been [13 years]. My professional work there wasn't particularly satisfying. The most satisfaction I received, outside of family and so on, was working on the City Council for about eight or nine years. That was really quite satisfying. Even getting into the City Council in the first place was pretty satisfying. Get into politics, sell yourself and get elected. Quite a project, but it was quite satisfying. (Someday, Steven wanted me to tell more about that, and I told him I might have a little visit and tell him more of the details.) It was really a satisfying experience to come in as an unknown, go in there and put together a campaign. Go from the bottom man on the totem pole during the primaries to near the top in the general election. Each year after that I was okay. Achieving that was satisfying. Then the things we accomplished on that council were satisfying. I received very little satisfaction at school professionally but quite a bit on the City Council. Speaking of jobs at that time, I was both in Tuba City and Page, I was teaching night classes for the Yavapai College, Community College, Northern Arizona University, that sort of thing. Teaching a class or two a semester. And working for Park Service during the summers [when he was in his mid 50’s], which is quite satisfying too -- cleaning toilets and cleaning up garbage. How can that be satisfying? …Because I was doing a good job. I made those toilets shine. I picked up garbage along the way, and the people -- old Adrian, tougher than an old Sergeant, he said, “Scott, you're the best worker we got.” Adrian -- his wife was Ginger -- anyway, he was a tough old guy but with a heart of gold, really. So just doing a remedial task really well, knowing you're doing it better than somebody else, well, that was quite satisfying. When I think about things I learned from just being your daughter, I think I learned the value of work and any work can be satisfying. Maybe it's because of this projection that whatever you were doing, you could find some value in that and satisfaction. I would like to know how you felt about your counseling. There were certain areas of counseling that I felt success in, that I felt good about. The areas I felt the most productive and the most helpful were in group situations. Even though one-on-one counseling can be very satisfying when you're in control, maybe more than you might be in a group. I just felt more success in some of the groups. I had some of the groups that would meet in our home in Indian Hills. As I conducted their interaction and their influence on each other and what they were doing for each other, it was quite satisfying. I had some groups in college that were good. Pre-marital counseling I did, I felt good about. I wish we had some of the instruments then that they have now -- that help in communicating and helped in achieving and things like understanding and so on. Pre-marriage counseling was quite satisfying. The classes I taught on marriage and family at BYU were often more satisfying than the counseling because of the structure of it and things to accomplish. My main goal was just to help the couples understand each other better and communicate better. So I had quite a bit of satisfaction with the classes I taught. (Inaudible question, sounds like it may be about another counselor.) Can't really remember the details except he was kind of a free spirit, you might say. He saw himself as a kind of a borderline hippie culture. He was wearing long hair, you know, typical hippie, back in those days when hair and those kinds of things were made bigger deals out of, you know. So he came up and showed me he'd cut his hair or something like that and I can't remember...it's kind of coming back to me but I can't remember that much. I took a class from you and Vern at BYU. When you were working on the hotline? The telephone hotline? (Speaking of taking the class, she names some names I can't understand then I can hear this part) I got a reference from Vern to get that job, 'cause I took a class from him. I remember thinking, “Wow!” 'cause I had never seen you in an actual classroom situation as a teacher. I do remember it made quite an impression on me. How well you taught and the way you would talk to students. It was really kind of eye-opening, really kind of neat. I wanted to know about your sabbatical at the State Hospital? I had two sabbaticals while I was there. One was a sabbatical to go up to Utah and take a class at the clinical psych program and the other sabbatical was at the State Hospital. I worked as a psychologist there for that year. That was in a sense satisfying. I know that I had the respect of the social workers and the nurse -- the nurse who had a great deal of respect for your grandma. They were colleagues back in the early days of the hospital. This lady was a very gracious lady and a fine nurse. We would form a team, the nurse, the psychiatrist, a social worker or two and myself as a psychologist. I wasn't really a well-qualified psychologist because a lot of the kinds of tests psychologists give I couldn’t give. I wasn't very far into projective tests, but I could do some of the others. I did make a contribution. We would fly every other week down to St. George. The other week we'd fly to Vernal to hold clinics. We would form a team. I would put my input, the technicians would put in their input, the psychiatrist, everyone would put in their input, and then from that would emerge a diagnosis and a treatment program. Results of that might be that I would see that patient in a group or individually or something. Then the others would have their relationship with the patient. We had a pretty good program there. But here again, as just part of the team, I felt like I was contributing quite successfully. Did you ever have a job where you felt inadequate? There's no question that my work in Page was hardly satisfying at all. Paul Rosier was a great administrator and a great person. He tried to institute some programs, both in terms of counseling and advising students. Just a whole system of teaching students, and the faculty wouldn't buy it. So I was just part of the equation that was a burden to the teachers. They didn't respond to me or to him or to the program. I know I'm not telling you enough to know what the program was, but that could have been very helpful in terms of teachers relating to students in a helpful situation -- to help them with their classes and their programs, and just adjustment in general in their school. Frank Bell, he and I didn't get along at all. He had a ‘fair-haired’ boy that he had waiting in the wings that he wanted to bring in as counselor. So he did everything he could to make life miserable for me. Therefore, I wound up back in the classroom, which also was not completely satisfying. I enjoyed my teaching at BYU, that age, but teaching 7th and 8th graders was not very satisfying. I enjoyed teaching when I was a substitute teacher, but there's a total difference. Plus the quality of the kids was better in St. George than they were in Tuba City and Page. In 30 seconds or less, what do you feel best about substitute teaching? …The fact that I can joke with the kids, tease with the kids, tell more stories. Just be ‘cool’. I'll give you one example of being cool. I wasn't starting out to be cool but it's just the way it developed. It was very early in my substitute teaching experience. I was teaching this class -- when I say teaching, I handed out the assignment the teacher gave and they were to do it and I'd pick it up at the end of the hour. That's that, I don't see them anymore. In this particular class, there were a couple of ‘cuties’. They happened to be boys. Just, you know, charming, cutie boys who wanted to talk and visit and socialize and do what they wanted to do. They didn't want to work. I've tried to modify over a period of two or three months of them doing this, how to relate to the kids and how to deal with discipline and stuff. On this particular day, I said, “I only have one rule. When you say, 'I only have one rule,' they always say, 'Be quiet, no talking.'” I said, “You know, they always say that.” I said, “It could be.” But I said, “My rule is respect; you respect me and I'll respect you. You respect me by listening when I give instructions. I'll respect you by listening to you when it's your turn to talk.” Other ways we can show respect, relative to class management and those other things. I said, “But I realize we've got to be realistic, that sometimes people won't follow that rule. So I have a subsidiary rule. Just like you have seatbelt rules on the highway to force people to act as though they have enough sense to wear a seatbelt. You have a speed limit to force people to act like they have enough sense to not go 90 miles an hour. I explained to you my rule about respect but sometimes I find that kids just don’t have enough sense to act with respect. So my subsidiary rule is, if I point to you and say, ‘That's one,’ that's a warning. If I point to you and say, ‘That's two,’ that's your secondary rule. And if I point to you and I say, ‘That's three,’ you're outta here. Because I don't have to put up with this. It's nonsense.” So, as the class was getting underway, this one cutesie guy started being cute so I said, “That's one.” After a few minutes, “That's two.” Then I said, “Hey, you're outta here.” So I went out, and he was really a sweet kid, and I put my hand on his shoulder and I said, “You know, you're probably a real nice guy, and I see myself as a good judge of character. I'm sure you’re just a fine young man, but you're just driving me crazy.” I said, “One more false move on you and you're going to the office. Think that's fair?” He said, “Well, yeah, I guess so.” So I said, “Okay, go back in, no more false moves.” He went back in and as soon as he got sat back down, I thought, “Please, God, don't let him get out of line, because I don't know what I'd do if he did.” As the hour went on, I was thinking, “Don't make a mistake, don't blow it.” He was a perfect little kid. The whole class was. Quite often when you'd point to somebody and say, “That's one,” the whole class shuts up. After the class was over, I went over to him and shook his hand and said, “Thanks.” He said, “What for?” I said, “For not getting out of line, because I don't know what I would have done if you had.” The guy sitting next to him said, “Are you being sarcastic?” I said, “No, I'm just being honest. I think you guys deserve to know if the teacher goofs up. And I think I blew it. I'm grateful he didn't put me in a situation where I had to do it.” He said, “Hey, you're cool, you're cool.” So every once in a while, every time I'd go into certain classrooms, they'd say, “Oh, you're the cool one.” Not necessarily referring to this experience, but through others too, so I tried to be cool. That's my main goal in school was to be cool. You're 75 years old? Seventy-two. They think I'm 56. Every once in a while they'd say, “How old are you?” I'll say “72.” “Oh, I thought you were 56.” I don't know where they got that. Anyway. It's ‘cause you're so cool. You're younger. Lotta years on your life and you're cool. I try to be cool. Like I say, I'll have fun with them. I have a disappearing dollar trick. Con a kid out of a dollar, and it disappears. Then I carry my piece of shrapnel that I got hit with during WWII. They feel that little sharp piece of steel, you know, just to be cool. What a nice thing to not have to worry about any other earth-shattering fetes. Well you know, it's kind of like being a grandpa. You go in there, you play with them, you horse around a little bit. I'll have to admit, a couple weeks ago, with one class, I was a little too late. High-fives here and there, just kind of joking and having fun. When I said, “Ok, it's time to work,” they didn't want to, they wanted to keep horsing around. It got so bad I just couldn't shut them up. So I pushed the button and said, “Is there someone down in the office that could come up and control this class?” So the principal came up and set them straight real quick. But it's fun to have a little kid come up and say, “You're the best substitute we've ever had.” Or say, real sincere, “You’re good, you're nice. I hope you come again some time.” Pretty validating when it comes from young people. What's the age? K-12. I subbed for kindergarten classes. I prefer actually the high school, because you know, you give them the project to do, you just take the roll, kind of keep them quiet and productive. Once or twice I've said to classes who were kind of horsing around at the beginning of the class, I'd say, “Are you wondering why I'm doing this?” They look at you and say, “What do you mean?” “Well, I'm pacing myself. Because if I give you the work to do which will only take you 15 minutes, then for me to control you the rest of the time, by that time we're going to be going crazy. So, if we horse around a little bit now, you visit a little bit now, then you can do the work. Then you can visit quietly for a while. Then, by the time the bells rings, you won't be off the walls.” I'm open with them on that and I usually get a pretty good response. So anyway, it's been much more satisfying than my work at other places.